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Black Mage
http://forums.mcleodgaming.com/viewtopic.php?f=119&t=44780
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Author:  Danny [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Ravin_Raven wrote:
Now I actually came here to talk about Stop. I think that move is completely useless, since it has too much start up lag to be a good reaction move or reflector, and it also moves your opponent away from you, making punishes difficult. Someone in the samus change thread was very confused by my comment there about how useless stop was, so I'd like to hear what everyone thinks stop is good for.

I know that you can charge stop, then shield to keep your charge until the next time you use it, but like I said, still too much start up lag to break combos or surprise opponents, and it still moves the opponent away from you, preventing punishes.

I agree that it's pretty useless as a reflector unless the projectile is slow (e.g Getsuga Tenshou), but it's pretty much a free grab if it connects with an opponent. Situations where I use it are when an opponent makes a dash towards me (as if their attack misses, it usually catches them afterwards due to their end lag. I always jump before using it though so that I can accelerate my fall speed if need be) or when a flying opponent is about to hit the ground (I chase after them, jump and use it in order to prevent a floor attack). Stop still has a decent range so these connect most of the time. I will say however that I've never really bothered charging it.

I'm no competitive fellow but I don't think it's supposed to be that much of a combo breaker, and while it definitely has its flaws, it's nowhere near a useless move

Author:  Placeholder [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

>Stop
>Useless

You're the one that has to Stop, sonny :chibirobo:

Author:  Jan_Solo [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

I say it's a useless move to bother reflecting

But it's a very good tool for combo starting and extending, imo

Author:  NA [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

It's perhaps BM's best tool for covering tech options, both on the ground and at ledge, because it always puts your opponent in a disadvantaged state.

It becomes rock-paper-scissors at worst (think Link's 2nd jab in Sm4sh) and a free grab more often than not. There aren't many situations where just throwing out a giant stun box is a bad idea, just don't be predictable with it or use it much in neutral where it's more punishable.

Author:  Ravin_Raven [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

I have been enlightened by your input. I'll try using stop again and see if it has viability in terms of freeing up grabs. I wasn't exactly competent before Beta, so I wouldn't necessarily have a good idea of what were good moves back in 0.9b.

Also, when I said Fair was a kill move, I meant off stage. I once walled a guy off stage with Fair, and wound (wownd? how do you spell that word?) up killing him at 103%. I don't have the replay, sadly, but take my word for it.

Author:  Jan_Solo [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

That's called "edgeguarding", basically Black Mage's specialty

Speaking of edguarding, what exactly did Black Mage do to deserve the Meteo nerf?

Author:  Ravin_Raven [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Jan_Solo wrote:
That's called "edgeguarding", basically Black Mage's specialty

Speaking of edguarding, what exactly did Black Mage do to deserve the Meteo nerf?


So a move that can kill when edgeguarding isn't considered a kill move? I guess that makes sense.

Author:  Jan_Solo [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

I mean, if Jigglypuff's BAir is a kill move, then maybe Black Mages FAir counts too?

Author:  Ravin_Raven [ Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Jan_Solo wrote:
I mean, if Jigglypuff's BAir is a kill move, then maybe Black Mages FAir counts too?

I guess we'll just have to leave it to the back room.

Author:  Corvid Crow [ Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Fair cant count as a kill move like jiggs bair because of the angle it sends ppl when they di in lmao

Author:  Gold_Leader [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

After playing SSF2 for the majority of my summer break, I thought I should share my thoughts on the character design of Black Mage.

BM is my favorite video-game character across all franchises. And must I say, McLeod has done a superb job representing the character. Everything from the plain neutral game to the intricate smash attacks. Anyone who plays BM in SSF2 faces similar obstacles you find when playing him in some of the first Final Fantasy series; my personal favorite being Dawn of Souls. Seriously though, like this is SO IMPRESSIVE. I LOVE YOU GUYS!

I love how all his moves in his neutral game *damaging moves & abilities* are small and relatively disjointed from each other; there isn't a plethora of true combos or strings you can execute. This is due to McLeod's good character design. BM plays the same in Final Fantasy; he has melee attacks he can perform, but they are nowhere near as effective as actual melee characters like the warrior or the monk. This forces the player think outside of the box and try to work with BM's quirky move set to do damage to his competitors. If the player chooses to look at BM's neutral game as he/she would any other character they would be bound to failure.

BM's smash attacks are also very reminiscent of his games. The fact that you have two different smash attacks for each direction *I believe* is a reference to where in his games he would learn a low level spell such as "Thunder" and later he would learn a higher level spell that was very similar like "Thundera" or "Thunderaga" that basically applied "Thunder" to every one of the mobs or do a whole lot more damage. I praise McLeod's very close attention to detail and their creativeness to apply this character design into a smash character.

Playing BM effectively is like trying to solve a puzzle. Trying to come up with different uses or patterns of moves to win you the game. Which said patterns and moves varies depending on what character BM is facing against.

Even with this "puzzle mindset" I still believe BM has his faults of a character. A solid strategy for me when I play him is to keep my distance and use some powerful spells to corner my opponent into a pickle. So I use moves to keep my distance or to kill once they get up to percent. Although, I feel as if some moves BM has in his kit just aren't nearly as effective as others and feel useless. For me *as an amateur player* the moves I find useless are:

[*]Down Special:Meteor
[*]Neutral Special: Stop


I have found BM's down special next to useless for many reasons. Firstly, It hardly does any damage. It does like 14-18 damage at most. Secondly, It's slow. It's slow both charging up and slow flying as a projectile. It takes about 2.5 seconds to charge it fully Usually when I pull it out my opponent can dodge it super easily. I wouldn't be complaining as much if I could simply aim the move, but it's stuck at a 45 degree angle downward that's just too easily avoided. And thirdly It's not a viable kill move either. It kills Mario in the middle of FD, Non DI'ed, fully charged, at 138% or later. In comparison, BM's Light F-Smash kills Mario at 80% and takes around 1.5 seconds to charge. Also, It's a pretty lame zoning move for when you are airborne because once you hit the ground it resets into a tiny meteor. Some say "It's a good Edge-Guarding tool" It might be, but BM has much better options to choose from like Dair, F-smash, and down-tilt.

So Black Mage's Down Special is slow at charging, slow at moving, weak in damage, AND weak in knock-back, not his best Edge-Guarding tool, resets the charge once you land on the ground AND you can't aim it.


Now, I'm not going to claim that Stop is completely useless *As I'm claiming meteor is* but when comparing the move to other chargeable neutral specials, It's definitely under-powered. The hit box for it is really difficult to land *but that could just be because I'm bad* . But my biggest complaint is that BM cannot roll out of charging it. He can't stop charging it and then continue charging it. And it's pretty tricky on the timing to store a fully charged neutral special; If you miss it and wait too long it will execute the move as soon as it's fully charged which IS REALLY ANNOYING. So if McLeod could change the way you charge his neutral special to be similar to how you charge Samus' or D.K's neutral special that would make the move a whole lot more accessible and usable when playing BM. But that's just my thoughts.

If any of you agree/disagree on whether these moves should be balanced or how to go about balancing them feel free to criticize my logic and Ideas.

Again, thank you McLeod for gifting us this beautiful game to us this Summer. And especially thank you for making Black Mage! :blackmage:



Gold_Leader over and out!

Author:  Gudako's Insanity [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Gold_Leader wrote:

Now, I'm not going to claim that Stop is completely useless *As I'm claiming meteor is* but when comparing the move to other chargeable neutral specials, It's definitely under-powered. The hit box for it is really difficult to land *but that could just be because I'm bad* . But my biggest complaint is that BM cannot roll out of charging it. He can't stop charging it and then continue charging it. And it's pretty tricky on the timing to store a fully charged neutral special; If you miss it and wait too long it will execute the move as soon as it's fully charged which IS REALLY ANNOYING. So if McLeod could change the way you charge his neutral special to be similar to how you charge Samus' or D.K's neutral special that would make the move a whole lot more accessible and usable when playing BM. But that's just my thoughts.

You can keep the charging of Stop when you shield during it.
RED LEADER STANDING BY

Author:  Gold_Leader [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Gudako's Insanity wrote:
You can keep the charging of Stop when you shield during it.
RED LEADER STANDING BY


I know you can keep the charge by pressing shield. But my complaint was:
TEN-FOUR RED-LEADER
Gold_Leader wrote:
He can't stop charging it and then continue charging it.


Author:  Jan_Solo [ Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Remember when Meteo can be angled?
Can we have it back?

Author:  Corvid Crow [ Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black Mage

Meteor is so useful what are you on about LOL

Gives BM a great spacing move, while slow it sets up into so much and idk why people aren't saying youre wrong about this. Great for spacing, edgeguarding, and is a MUST USE tool of BM's neutral.

Stop is still okay, it has its uses as a move to setup into grab/kill moves as well as a slow reflector move. The timing for charging any section of stop is really easy, just hold shield when you want to stop it at Stop 1, Stop 2 etc. Also being able to shield out of a stop charge means that he can essentially jump out of charging the move, which is great as a mixup.

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