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Smash Flash Back Room Official Beta Tier List (1.0.3.2) 
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-CJ- wrote:
playridise wrote:
135 wrote:
ZSS can't KO though; it's not hard to live into the 150%'s against her as a mid-weight, if you know her KO patterns.


She has B-Air however, and that move is decent for killing. B-Air is easy to pressure with and iirc you can up-throw to B-air. She also has F-Smash which is reliable and long and you can combo down-smash into it. ZSS also has up-air along with having a decent juggle game to at least get the Up-Air properly.

ZSS is hard and pretty much no one has put enough time into her to unlock any sort of potential. She has tools but they are hard to set up. And Bair is difficult to hit against smaller characters to the point where it's just sad. Any character with their double jump left and/or a decent below-hitting move can avoid her Uair juggle easily, forcing her to return to the ground and go up again, but by that time the opponent is already prepared to evade, attack, or airdodge. ZSS has a hard and definitely should not be above Jigglypuff.


Most smaller characters except for Tails aren't very prominent in the current meta and ZSS is more about pressuring her opponents to make mistakes. Also since Kyoz is dropping Pac-Man (Who is bottom 10 by now), it will be likely that he will pick up ZSS again. Up-Air 50/50's exist for a reason, we aren't supposed to have Up-Air be guaranteed. You are supposed to have the opponent air dodge or try to attack ZSS then you wait patiently to get the Up-Air, it's more practical than it sounds. ZSS's matchups are stronger than most low tiers and it is stong enough to keep her in the bottom of mid tier because she fits the bill in a metagame filled with swordfighters and characters with a good punish game along with ZSS having a decent neutral with N-Air to setup lots of punishes making her at least a secret threat in competitive play that may rise in the future if Kyoz starts picking her up again.

Chibi Robo's frame data isn't remotely good but it isn't Isaac bad Dark Chibi Knight lol

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Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm
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Please forgive me if this is out of nowhere, but could someone please tell me about Sandbag and Kirby's placements on the tier list here? I'm mostly asking about Kirby for myself, and my brother's apparently really questioning Sandbag's placement.


Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:04 pm
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Are they too high or too low compared to what you expected?


Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:25 pm
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Tails needs nerfs, Goku needs buffs, Bowser and Lloyd's positions were correct predictions [hey that rhymes], Sandbag will become the joke character again soon, Yoshi is no longer a dinosaur thanks to the buffs, Sora seriously does need a rework [just saying], and Naruto may need some things that he had in 0.9b to stay with the rest of the cast.

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Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:58 pm
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okay but seriously guys when's :sonic: getting a useful buff

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give sonic a buff you clods


Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:34 pm
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Mysteric wrote:
Goku needs buffs


ahahahaaaaahhahahaha NO. He most definetly does not. There are plenty of characters that do need desperate buffs, but Goku is not one of them. Top of High Tier is a great spot to be in. If anything, I would ask for a nerf on Ki Blasts (ledge trapping ability is ridiculous) and that his Up B no longer carrying momentun. Other than that the character is relatively fine imo.


Back to the actual tier list, there isnt too much I disagree with (granted, I was actively participating for 1/3 of it, so Im obviously biased here). What I do not understand though is BBM suddenly to just outside Top 20 (what did he do to warrant that? As far as I am aware he didnt really get that great buffs, and his representation is still miniscule). The other thing is Pit in Top 5. His recovery is fine, he has disjoints, a strong projectile, a good edgeguarding game, a decent juggle game and tons of KO power (Side B is strong, and Down Smash is insanely strong. I died to that s*** at 80% across the entirety of Dream Land before). Yeah, multihits kinda suck now (why on earth that engine change was neccessary I cannot wrap my head around, but I digress), but I somewhat doubt that this alone completely ruins an otherwise solid character in my eyes.

And I still think that Tails does not require nor deserve his own tier, but I digress.

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Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:12 pm
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The Dark Chibi Knight wrote:
Pit in Top 5.

wut

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Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:05 pm
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The Dark Chibi Knight wrote:
Mysteric wrote:
Goku needs buffs


ahahahaaaaahhahahaha NO. He most definetly does not. There are plenty of characters that do need desperate buffs, but Goku is not one of them. Top of High Tier is a great spot to be in. If anything, I would ask for a nerf on Ki Blasts (ledge trapping ability is ridiculous) and that his Up B no longer carrying momentun. Other than that the character is relatively fine imo.


Back to the actual tier list, there isnt too much I disagree with (granted, I was actively participating for 1/3 of it, so Im obviously biased here). What I do not understand though is BBM suddenly to just outside Top 20 (what did he do to warrant that? As far as I am aware he didnt really get that great buffs, and his representation is still miniscule). The other thing is Pit in Top 5.Bottom 5. His recovery is fine, he has disjoints, a strong projectile, a good edgeguarding game, a decent juggle game and tons of KO power (Side B is strong, and Down Smash is insanely strong. I died to that s*** at 80% across the entirety of Dream Land before). Yeah, multihits kinda suck now (why on earth that engine change was neccessary I cannot wrap my head around, but I digress), but I somewhat doubt that this alone completely ruins an otherwise solid character in my eyes.

And I still think that Tails does not require nor deserve his own tier, but I digress.


Fixed that for you.

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Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:15 am
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whoops

Well, my point still stands :pikachu:

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Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:54 am
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My point still stands for Pac-Man being WAY too high than he ever should be, key glitch or not.

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Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:22 pm
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:bomberman: Let us all remind ourselves this:

:bomberman: does what a bombercan, pacan't, falcan't, Sheican't, Chibi-Can't, Pikacan't, Captain Falcan't, Lloydon't, Meta Not and a Zeldon't.

:bomberman: :bomberman: :bomberman: :bomberman: :bomberman:

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>tfw you main low tiers
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Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:02 pm
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135 wrote:
Are they too high or too low compared to what you expected?


Well, Kirby feels somewhat low. Kind of thought HE'D be ahead of Bandana Dee rather than vice-versa.

As for Sandbag, my brother just wants to know what justifies his current position. He feels like Sandy seems TOO unorthodox of a character to him to place anywhere on this thing.


Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:19 pm
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dragonballhero wrote:
135 wrote:
Are they too high or too low compared to what you expected?


Well, Kirby feels somewhat low. Kind of thought HE'D be ahead of Bandana Dee rather than vice-versa.

As for Sandbag, my brother just wants to know what justifies his current position. He feels like Sandy seems TOO unorthodox of a character to him to place anywhere on this thing.


Kirby should be MUCH lower than Bandana Dee. I'm actually shocked by how low Dee truly is. Kirby's lack of disjoints compared to Bandana Dee gives Kirby a significantly worse matchup spread especially given how SSF2 currently has a meta filled with swordfighters. Bandana Dee has a much better neutral and his reliance on bait and punish allows for him to get hit less overall which makes it so he won't be at kill percent as often as Kirby. Bandana Dee also has OriginalJoey who is doing pretty well with Bandana Dee along with Bandana Dee having an ACTUAL projectile which is a biggie.

Sandbag is too high on that tier list tbh. Sandbag is too unreliable to be very viable and his matchups are poopy in general along with Sandbag having poor range and being easily campable along with having neutral issues which makes him die more than the opponent. And he is simply just too risky to play to be anywhere above bottom 5 tbh.

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Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:43 pm
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The Dark Chibi Knight wrote:
. The other thing is Pit in Top 5.



pit main here, he's bottom 15 at best

exploitable recovery
multi hit change IS enough to hurt him, considering 50% of his moves are of such
pretty slow
side-B' without port is awful
terrible utilt, worst in the game imo
arrows easy to clank
broken down-b (like literally broken, it doesn't reflect stuff)

bottom 5, hell no
but i can see where they are coming from with his large drop

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TheBlue10 wrote:
Sonic was never good

9A sonic

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